The Gist: Welcome to the first month of the VegNews Book Club! I hope you're as excited as I am to get started with our conversation of Mad Cowboy by Howard Lyman—the fourth-generation cattle rancher-turned-vegan. In chapter one, Lyman talks about his experience on The Oprah Winfrey Show, where he spoke out about Mad Cow Disease and how it was very possible that the US would follow in the same footsteps as England, where Mad Cow Disease spread quite rapidly. Both he and Oprah were subsequently sued by Texas cattlemen for "food disparagement" after Oprah claimed she'd never eat another hamburger. (Lyman and Oprah eventually won the case.) In chapter two, he points out the "simple facts" of eating meat and animal products, and how it contributes a variety of illnesses including atherosclerosis, high cholesterol, stroke, osteoporosis, diebetes, and hypertension. Finally, in chapter three Lyman talks about his personal history of growing up on an organic family farm, eventually taking over after reaching adulthood. Once in his control, he turned it into a much larger operation by using chemicals of all kinds in order to "improve on nature."The Discussion: Lyman brings up many important issues in these first three chapters, five of which I've summarized below. Feel free to answer only one or all of them in the comments section. I will be moderating the discussion throughout the week, responding to comments, and posting a summary of everyone's thoughts this Friday, July 9.
1. (Chapter 1 and 3) What makes Lyman different from other farmers? How and why do you think his consciousness emerged while most farmers don't or will not change their views on agribusiness?
2. (Chapter 1) Do you think the Oprah event was a turning point in how factory farming was viewed by the public?
3. (Chapter 1) If it would cost you your livelihood, would you speak your mind or tell the truth about something?
4. (Chapter 2, p. 42) Hypothetically, what do you think would happen if the world went veg/vegan overnight?
5. (Chapter 3) How could we separate the concepts of money and power (where agribusiness comes into play) from consciousness and morality? Is this even possible?
The Assignment: Read chapters 4 and 5 of Mad Cowboy for the July 12 discussion.
~VN Book Club Hostess Lyndsay Orwig
1.
ReplyDeleteI’m not really sure how Lyman is different from other farmers, particularly because the book thus far doesn’t discuss or highlight the opinions of other farmers.
I think Lyman’s consciousness emerged because he ran his family farm in to the ground. His family had to watch the farm die because we thought quicker and cheaper was a better option. Inevitably he killed a long and proud legacy that had been left to him because he was seduced by the newer ideas of agribusiness. His conscience got the best of him and he couldn’t live with his decision.
I think some farmers are reluctant to change because the money is so much more seductive. The demand is for the products that come out of agribusiness. We are consumers vote everyday with the choices we make at the super market. Far more people are voting for the products that come out of these disgusting practices. And ultimately the farmer and the consumer are paying the price with their land and/or health.
2.
I think any time a large public figure brings attention to something people take notice and want to do something about it. I don’t think it was a turning point, because if it were then there would be more consumers against factory farming. I think it was a flash in the pan moment…but more attention needs to be brought to the issue before the public starts to demand that change happen.
3.
Absolutely. As a minority and a woman I’m in the place I am now because someone spoke up against the injustices that were in place long before I got her. My father was a member of The Little Rock Nine, and I know that he and the other 8 students stood up for something as children to help those that would come after them. What’s being done in agribusiness is horrible for our health, and if I could lose my livelihood because I want to help protect the health of my fellow man then so be it.
4.
I think the financial shift would be amazing to watch. I also think ecologically it would be such a great change. Right now animal agriculture makes a 40% greater contribution to global warming than all forms of transportation on the planet. Americans choose to eat less than .25% of known edible food on the plant. If we tapped in to all the food that we naturally have and not use so much of it to feed to other animals we wouldn’t have people going hungry or malnourished. We’ve barely tapped in to the food we have on this planet and there is no reason anyone should be going hungry, EVER. I think we would see so many healthy issues reduced, especially because of the role nutrition plays in preventive medicine. I really think an over night change would impact everything beyond what we can even imagine.
5.
I don’t think you can ever separate money and power in the concept of agribusiness. I think if you know what’s happening in factory farming the money cannot overrule your consciousness.
What I’m most interested in is Lyman’s discussion of how he learned all about agribusiness in college. That they were taught these newer more profitable techniques to get rid of what were perceived as antiquated practices. I wonder if colleges now are teaching the older farming practices, similar to what Lyman’s father used to run the farm by? Because with shows like “The Fabulous Beekman Boys,” Martha Stewarts constant promoting of sustainable, compassionate farming, and people like Alice Waters promoting farm-to-table meals it seems like more people want to get back to old farming. And if this is a cyclical deal then will we go back to “old farming” only to one day go back to factory farms?
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ReplyDelete1) We tend to defend what we "know", and farmers are fed this information on the newest methods and chemicals with a contagious enthusiasm, much like doctors with the newest drugs. I think, and I may be completely wrong, more farmers realize these methods are wrong and unsustainable, but don't think they're able to take the risk of losing their livelihood over taking a stand. As we've seen in all of the recent food documentaries, it seems as though many farmers have very little control over their own product; they have rules to follow and contracts to fulfill.
ReplyDelete2) I was only 13 when the lawsuit took place and I remember thinking, "Woah, this sounds like they have something to protect, something to hide." It seemed like a suit tobacco would feel the need to bring, not beef! It must have brought the issue to the public's attention because you couldn't flip through the channels without every other one having coverage on the case. It's still infuriating to me, not because I have a thing for Oprah, but because it's just wrong people are forbidden to speak out or question what is going on with their food. I'm always leery of these types of "councils" that have to constantly remind the public not to believe their product may be harmful. Milk, eggs, beef, chicken, pork... Don't even get me started on those high fructose corn syrup commercials...
3) In Lyman's case, definitely. If it's a moral issue or a safety issue, I would without a doubt. But it would definitely be hard to put your integrity and financial well-being on the line.
4) As a vegan and firm believer in my cause, of course I want to say it would be the ultimate perfection. But every city would have tons of products on their shelves no one would buy and companies/farmers would need time to change to accommodate. People would be throwing out food and leather, and other animal products with a ferocity our landfills couldn't take. Of course it won't happen overnight, but I'm all for working towards a vegan world!
5) From agribusiness itself, I don't think we're going to see any great strides in morality or consciousness. Our society just doesn't work that way. A change has to come from the people; we vote with our dollar. If I have a problem with GMOs, but I'm not checking labels or asking the market where I purchase, I'm just supporting something I supposedly stand against. If someone is disgusted by factory farming, but buys hamburger from the megachain superstore (or meat at all, from anywhere really), then they're contributing to the problem. Don't think "I'm just one person," because sure you are, but so is everyone else until we all make that one little choice that brings us together and shapes the definition of food and determines how it will be produced.
2. I think it definitely brought attention to the subject of cattle farming, but unfortunately, wasn't necessarily a "turning point". I think a lot of people were more interested that Oprah was being sued, and like Lyman said--he wasn't really noticed as much during the spectacle. But hopefully, it made people think more what they were actually consuming/eating.
ReplyDelete4. If everyone went vegan overnight, I think that even in that short amount of time people would notice a difference in how much lighter and better they feel. And they eventually would notice a shift toward a beautiful, healthier environment too!
1. (Chapter 1 and 3) What makes Lyman different from other farmers? How and why do you think his consciousness emerged while most farmers don't or will not change their views on agribusiness?
ReplyDeleteI think it's just happenstance that Lyman was a farmer. If he was in any other profession he would still have had his awakening. And just like most vegans have experienced, while we are willing to change our lifestyle, most around us will stay in denial.
I do think Lyman had tremendous courage to face that what he had been taught was all wrong, and to walk away from that.
2. (Chapter 1) Do you think the Oprah event was a turning point in how factory farming was viewed by the public?
I don't think the turning point has happened. But it might have been the first of a series of events which are setting the stage for it. Agribusiness isn't going down without a fight, though.
3. (Chapter 1) If it would cost you your livelihood, would you speak your mind or tell the truth about something?
I'd like to think I would. I once left a very good job because I had ethical questions about the way in which I was asked to work. But I was married to another wage-earner, and our house was paid off, so there was no real danger of becoming homeless. I just don't know.
4. (Chapter 2, pg. 42) Hypothetically, what do you think would happen if the world went veg/vegan overnight?
Well, the first several years would be a mess. Animals on factory farms would be abandoned and left to starve to death. And because crops grown for animal feed are not necessarily suited to being human food, there would be a world-wide famine. A long term potential problem is the stranglehold that Monsanto and like companies have on the supply of seed, through their sales of seed and their campaign of terror on farmers that don't use their seed.
5. (Chapter 3) How could we separate the concepts of money and power (where agribusiness comes into play) from consciousness and morality? Is this even possible?
Not possible. While I believe most people want to do the right thing, the key is getting information into their hands.
Agribusiness knows this, and is fighting to keep information away from us. Like to keep us from knowing which products are GMO based, and right now California dairy interests are running ads claiming that most (99%? or something like that) of CA dairy farms are “family farms” complete with pictures of happy cows.
I don't think you can fully separate the two (money vs. morality) because it takes money to counter that kind of disinformation, but evil can't hide forever.
I find it scary that our government is controlled by the highest bidder. The whole idea of lobbyists and having leverage makes me sick. If they (Washington) really made decisions and laws for the good of the people instead of big business we would be in a very different situation with our health and well being.
ReplyDelete1. Most farmers are not able to change their views about agribusiness because it would be a very difficult change to make. It would require seeing themselves as part of the problem and giving up their ability to financially provide for themselves and their families. It's very impressive that Lyman was able to make this change. It's similar to people making the change to vegan/vegetarian when they learn about the horrors of factory farming but on a much larger scale.
ReplyDelete2. I'd like to think the Oprah show was a wake up call for all viewers on factory farming, but I'm not sure. I'm continually amazed at the amount of people who don't know what goes on behind the scenes in agribusiness or worse - who know and don't care.
3. If an issue were big enough to deeply bother me on a daily basis, I would absolutely give up my livelihood to bring attention to it.
4. Wow! If the world went veg overnight, I imagine the environment would benefit tremendously and I might explode with happiness for the end of the animal suffering.
5. This is a tough one. Gene Baur of Farm Sanctuary says that whenever animals are used to generate profit their treatment will always be compromised. I'd like to think this isn't true - in the case of small local farms. But I definitely think there is no way animal will be treated with compassion in large factory farms. I think this has been proven, because even when meager laws are proposed to slightly improve the lives of factory farm animals, agribusiness fights them, and if they pass they are frequently not complied with.
I have found myself really enjoying this book,which isn't something I planned on doing.
ReplyDelete1. (Chapter 1 and 3) What makes Lyman different from other farmers? How and why do you think his consciousness emerged while most farmers don't or will not change their views on agribusiness? He is certainly an educated farmer, learning what the greatest and latest scientific advances are and how they can make his farm - which is currently struggling to make ends meet - into a successful business venture. I think he saw the progresses he made, a still a small part of him - the parts that were instilled by his father and grandfater, as well as his new wife, he started to realize that what he was doing to just make an extra buck - was worse for the cows and the evirnnent.
2. (Chapter 1) Do you think the Oprah event was a turning point in how factory farming was viewed by the public? I think that it was one of the first times that a trial like this took place, so it was hard not to use that as a platform. To Oprah's Credit, she didn't try to bank off of this so much, as to show the american public how these men and corproations do NOT have the best at heart for the american consumers. It's about profits and protecting "corporate secrets"....just as turning cows into canibals.
3. (Chapter 1) If it would cost you your livelihood, would you speak your mind or tell the truth about something? Yes, I would speak my mind and tell the truth. I would not be able to sleep at night, nor look my children in the eye, if I weren't willing to do the right thing, no matter what it takes.
4. (Chapter 2, pg. 42) Hypothetically, what do you think would happen if the world went veg/vegan overnight? After some initial shock and having to figure out what to do with all the animals that are currently capitve in a factory farming situation, I think we'd see amazing improvments to our natural agriculture; soil quality, water run offs, etc. The animals, if let free, would not longer be spreading diseases amongst them. Natural selection would thin the artificially elevated populations. We'd lower the incidence of drug resistant antibodies that affect the human race. We'd see the young women in our society go back to normal prepubescent evolvement since they'd no longer be eating hormone-laced food products. I would imaine in a near overnight capacity, the world would improve dramatically. And keep on going. I'd like to be there for that!
5. (Chapter 3) How could we separate the concepts of money and power (where agribusiness comes into play) from consciousness and morality? Is this even possible? It is not possible in a moral society. What we do is claim ignrance...because if we thought about what we were doing, we'd be mortified.
1. (Chapter 1 and 3) What makes Lyman different from other farmers? How and why do you think his consciousness emerged while most farmers don't or will not change their views on agribusiness?
ReplyDeleteOne thing I noticed is his awareness of his surroundings. He might not have questioned things at the time, but when he recalls the condition of the farm when it was organic and compares it to what it has become, he sees. He sees the patterns and connections in nature around him. Even though it would be easier to lie to himself, he won't deny the truth in front of him. Other farmers may not have had the history to see the farm healthy, then dead. Also, there is an unquestioned faith in progress that drives those who don't want to look deeper to the next quick fix.
2. (Chapter 1) Do you think the Oprah event was a turning point in how factory farming was viewed by the public?
I think it raised awareness. There were some lives changed. If not a 90 degree angle, a curve in the road perhaps.
3. (Chapter 1) If it would cost you your livelihood, would you speak your mind or tell the truth about something?
This might very well be the answer to #1! Many would not. If at all possible, ignore the truth or explain it away. I would like to think I would have owned up to my part in the mess like Lyman.
4. (Chapter 2, pg. 42) Hypothetically, what do you think would happen if the world went veg/vegan overnight?
There would be a shortage of veggies! At least initially. I think we would have a world wondering what was for dinner. But it would be exciting. Seeing all the change, things being redirected and repurposed. People learning about their food again. It wouldn't be all ideal. Money will forever be a motivator and the companies we hate now would simple change their tune to meet the needs of the new veg consumer. People would still need to stay involved and know where their food comes from.
5. (Chapter 3) How could we separate the concepts of money and power (where agribusiness comes into play) from consciousness and morality? Is this even possible?
I think it simple isn't possible. Like it or not, each individual has the ability to choose. Getting these agribusinesses to act in a more conscious way would still be motivated by the money they would be making from more conscious consumers. Not that that isn't better than what we are dealing with today. If big business is more conscious and moral only because consumers demand it, that's fine with me.
1. I believe that farmers think they know what they are doing, that they are educated and they have the knowledge to run farms how they see fit, which tends to be whatever is most profitable. The farmers care about making money because farming is no longer a livelihood, it is a career. It is about making money, not feeding ones family. I don't think I can point out exactly why Lyman was about to change and the rest don't or what is specifically different about him to make the change.
ReplyDelete2. At the time it may have caused some people to pause and reconsider where their food is coming from, but overall I don't believe it had that great of an effect on how and what people eat.
3. I can't say that I would want to work in a profession where speaking out and telling the truth about injustices would mean losing my job. I would rather lose it and find a career more in line with my ethical believes.
4. It would depend on WHY everyone went veg! If it was for animal rights reasons, I would hope that the remaining domesticated animals would be taken care of to live out their lives, but also be humanely sterilized so as not to furhter their population.
If it was for any other reason, for example the environment or for health, I believe that humanity wouldn't take care of the domesticated animals and especially in the case of the environment, would most likely murder the animals jsut to be rid of them.
5. I believe it is possible because we see it all the time on smaller scales, like local business owners who care about animals and the environment. I believe that small scale is best and that businesses shouldn't be allowed to get out of hand and expand beyond a certain limit. The owners become too far removed from the ground operation. Even if big business tries to give consumers more morality and consciouness they demand from them, it would be fake and simply for profit anyways.
Hi fellow VegNews Book Club Members,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I would like to apologize for some of the issues that we’ve had with the commenting section. It was due to an error by Blogger that we couldn’t prevent. I hope it didn’t cause too much trouble.
It seems like a lot of you are enjoying the book so far, and the comments are great! Feel free to respond to the discussion questions, as well as other readers' comments.
After reading the comments so far, it seems like the main issues, at least to me, in this book are those of consciousness and morality. Obviously, the people in this reading club are primarily vegetarians and vegans. Do you think meat eaters would respond differently to these questions? Is it a matter of meat eaters not being conscious of the facts of factory farming (like Lyman when he started out), or do those who eat meat not see it as a moral issue? Any thoughts?
I will be posting a summary on Friday of what we've discussed this week, and I also look forward to discussing the next two chapters with you guys on Monday!
~VN Book Club Hostess Lyndsay Orwig
1. (Chapter 1 and 3) What makes Lyman different from other farmers? How and why do you think his consciousness emerged while most farmers don't or will not change their views on agribusiness?
ReplyDeleteI have read this book before, so I know more about how he feels than most who haven't finished it. I won't spoil it, but I think he is different from other farmer's because he was willing to give up everything he knew for the good of the land and the animals. I think he came to this place in his life because his career nearly ended his life as he knew it. A near death or drastic change in quality of life can change how we see the world and can make us see the error of our ways as well. I don't think most farmer's are willing to make this change because they don't get to the place of being forced to look at their lives with any clarity of truth.
2. (Chapter 1) Do you think the Oprah event was a turning point in how factory farming was viewed by the public?
Not really. I was young when this happened, but I don't see too many people who have changed how they eat. We hear about more and more recalls and more and more deaths from tainted meat but people keep right on buying it. There are more smaller farms emerging, but overall things haven't changed much. I think at the time it was happening it was a big deal and may have made an impact on some, but overall it was just a drop in the bucket of what still has to happen.
3. (Chapter 1) If it would cost you your livelihood, would you speak your mind or tell the truth about something?
Most likely, yes. I can't do anything for very long if I feel uncomfortable with it. Even things that aren't morally wrong don't set well with me if I'm not happy. I know I could never take a job where something was happening that I didn't agree with, even if it was all legal.
4. (Chapter 2, pg. 42) Hypothetically, what do you think would happen if the world went veg/vegan overnight?
I think we'd begin to see our land and our people heal. It would take some adjustment and the shifting of the way we do things, but jobs would shift and people would adapt.
5. (Chapter 3) How could we separate the concepts of money and power (where agribusiness comes into play) from consciousness and morality? Is this even possible?
We need to take away the power from these huge multinational corporations like Monsanto and put the power back into the hands of the workers. We can't let places like McDonalds determine the size of our chickens and while we may not be able to turn everyone into a vegetarian we have to make them see that the food they are eating is destroying our world.
I think what makes Lyman different is the fact he got sick and he knew what made him sick. He knew why he was fat but it was the tumor that ultimatley changed him. The other farmers have either not had anything significant enough happen or they are too blinded by the money and power they have.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think the Oprah thing was a huge turning point mainly because most people, myself included back then, dont know a lick about where our food comes from. And even if they have a small incling, they ignore it. I know I did. We now call it what it is. On Thanksgiving last year, I allowed my 5 yr old some ham, it was part of the yearly celebration. Well, a few months later she asked me why I let her have pig. I only thought about bacon or sausage, not the ham. So now when we talk about how other people eat, it is always, they are eating chickens, or pigs or cows. Society gives animal based foods these cute little names that have nothing to do with being cute.
The meat eaters I know, and that's everyone I know not online, don't want to know. It's a choice for them. I've heard many say that if they read that or saw that they wouldn't be able to eat that cheeseburger later. And they love that cheeseburger. As some of my friends taste my vegan food and realize it tastes good, the fear of losing their beloved cheeseburger fades slightly and there is some interest in knowing the truth.
ReplyDelete1. As someone that grew up on a farm, I am really glad to be reading this book. Every time I tell someone from back home that I am vegan, they look at me like I am crazy and ask how a farm girl could do such a thing. It is easy. You just have to open your eyes and stop believing in the lies that the industry tells you. Once you do that, then things like selling your lambs at the fair, etc. seems horrific. A farmer has more insight to the topic then most other people in the world, and it should not be that surprising when one decides to end the cycle and go vegan. However, I agree that money does play apart and therefore (tying into question 5.) most farmers do not let themselves see what is really going on. To do so would mean that they would not be able to put food on their family's table. It also to many would seem like they were turning their back on what had been the job of their father, grandfather, etc. in most cases. Unfortunately, the farming business is very different then what it used to be thanks to factory farms.
ReplyDeleteI very much agree with both Emmy and Deb's comments about if your quality of life changes, most of the time it will lead you to make a lifestyle change. For example, my father was told about two years ago by his physician that if he didn't change his diet, he would eventually follow in the footsteps of his mother, who sadly died of diabetes. Since then, he has drastically changed his lifestyle and habits, and is incredibly healthy—unfortunately not veg, but getting close!
ReplyDeleteSome people may need a bigger push than others, which goes back to my question before about how we are different from meat eaters.
Thanks for chiming in everyone. I look forward to reading more comments!
~VN Book Club Hostess Lyndsay Orwig
1. (Chapter 1 and 3) What makes Lyman different from other farmers? How and why do you think his consciousness emerged while most farmers don't or will not change their views on agribusiness?
ReplyDeleteI think there are probably plenty of farmers that realize that what they are doing isn't ethical but have so much fear to overcome: fear of the unknown, financial ruin, failure, family insecurity, etc. I think Lyman's connection to the earth and his family history, and knowing that his decision to stand against agribusiness was morally right, gave him strength to overcome the fear of change.
2. (Chapter 1) Do you think the Oprah event was a turning point in how factory farming was viewed by the public?
I think it takes many events like this to reach people, because sometimes we're only willing to listen when we're open to hearing the truth.
5. (Chapter 3) How could we separate the concepts of money and power (where agribusiness comes into play) from consciousness and morality? Is this even possible?
Don't you think that, more and more, ethical decisions are being rewarded financially? Isn't Wal-Mart "going green"? I think that through continued consumer education and empowerment, eventually agribusiness will have to answer to market-demands for ethically-produced food. I just hope that this process won't take several lifetimes. In the meantime, we have to stand up against corporate control of the FDA and demand that our food be accurately labeled so people can make informed decisions about what they buy.
Alright, I know I am a little late to the party, but I wanted to post my thoughts anyhow. Hope you don’t mind!
ReplyDelete1. To be honest, I am not sure Lyman is very different fundamentally from other farmers. Perhaps he is just further down the chain of realization and knowledge. This is not to say that one day every farmer is going to decide to take the steps that Lyman did and become conscious of the environmental impacts their work is doing, but perhaps the mind set is not all that different. I really do not know how other farmers view their work, so it is hard to judge on this point.
As others have pointed out, I think his consciousness emerged in part because he was so close to the farm as it went from a nature-prospering but economic-failing farm to essentially the exact reverse. He was there every step of the way and the destruction he viewed pushed him to think harder on the issue instead of ignore it. Also, I am sure his brother’s health played a large part as well.
2. I do not think the Oprah event was a turning point in how factory farming was viewed by the public. While the publicity might have been great at the time, I really do not think it has any lasting results. What is important here is not how much of a publicity boom can be garnered, but instead how much lasting chance is produced. I think this is a case of a large publicity boom, but a quite turn to the ‘out of sight, out of mind’ notion.
3. I know this is going to sound horrible, but I really think the situation depends. If a life was in the balance then yes, I would sacrifice my livelihood. However, if the matter was something I strongly believed in, but the cause did not directly impact the life of nature or its creatures, I am just not sure.
4. Honestly, I do not think it would be a good thing for the world to go veg/vegan overnight. While I am a vegan myself, and strongly support the cause, I do not think an immediate and abrupt change would be good for the world. In this case, I believe a rolling change would be better. What of all the animals, factories, and workers that would be left abandoned because of the switch? What of the immediate demand for vegetables, grains, and fruits? Realistically, there are simply too many variables to be dealt with overnight. The best scenario for the world would be a universal vow to go veg/vegan by a set date, however realistically, this would never happen.
5. As sad as it is, I do not believe this is even possible. Ever since the derivation of the ‘cash crop’ there is no way to separate money from consciousness. While the concept might be temporarily feasible for small corporations, as others have said, it is simply not possible to change the mindset and operations of so many large corporations that have no concern other than the bottom line. A wish for the distant future, perhaps, but in society’s current economic mindset, this will never be a feasible option.